Starve.Org White Noise Usenet Archive: "Re: Why Doesn't Anyone Have the Guts to Say it?"

On Jan 3, 1:21 pm, B. Real <B@..> wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:20:32 -0800 (PST), "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <rlbell.ns...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jan 2, 2:06 am, B. Real <B@..> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:54:07 -0800 (PST), "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com"
>
> >> >> The word 'atheist' was invented by religious fanatics in order to label normal
> >> >> people so that they could be victimized as a group.
>
> >> >> To hold no beliefs is the default situation...the one kids are born with....as
> >> >> against having one's mind indoctrinated with a load of crap like the existence
> >> >> of gods, 'heaven' and an afterlife.
>
> >> >> Preaching religion to children is a serious form of child abuse.
>
> >> > If holding no beliefs was the normal outcome of not being raised by
> >> >believers, it would be impossible for beliefs to have taken hold.
>
> >> I don't see any logic behind that statement. Selling religion to fools who will
> >> subsequently part with their money in order to buy a seat in heaven is a much
> >> older and more highly organized business that the used car one.
>
> >You say not believing is normal.
>
> One can have opinions and theories....but one should never be adamant about
> them unless they are proven.

You typed this, yet you vehemently disagree with it.
>
> >People with beliefs are more
> >prevalent than athiests.
>
> That's because there are more suckers in the world than thinkers.
>
> >You either have a personal definition of
> >'normal', or you are wrong-- which is it?
>
> Religions exist solely because of faith that their teachings are true..
> It should be quite obvious to any reasonably educated and intelligent person
> that there are no gods and no after life.

I am intelligent and reasonably educated (Bachelors' in mathematics
and computer science, with electrical engineering electives). What is
obvious is that, on average, religious are happier and deal with
adversity better than athiests (as this gets reported in peer reviewed
journals, I assume that the studies are well designed and carried
out). As for God and an Afterlife, absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence, so I go by what you typed above. I hope that
they are true and there is no evidence to refute it.

>
> >> >The
> >> >mere existence of belief systems disproves your assertion.
>
> >> People 'believe' because they want answers. If these aren't available, many
> >> will accept any wild guess that takes their fancy. The idea of an after-life is
> >> very attractive to the ignorant masses.
>
> >Are you admitting that belief is normal, or are you complaining that
> >what you believe to be true has little traction in the battle of
> >ideas?
>
> People should have open minds about anything that is not black and white.

That is twice in one post where you type something that, from
everything else that you type in your posts, you do not seem to
believe.

> You are asking whether or not absolute truth exists. There is a fine line
> between an opinion and a belief but most of our behavior is based on
> established fact which in turn comes from experience.
> I don't go to a supermarket to buy food becasue I BELIEVE it might sell me
> food. I know it will. ...

Actually it is an act of faith that the shopkeeper will exchange goods
and services for slips of paper and trivial amounts of metal coins
devoid of gold or silver, even copper in coins is rare ( US pennies
are thinly plated zinc slugs and canadian pennies are magnetic). If
your purchases involved the exchange of precious metal, than you KNOW
he would sell you food. A better example is that faith is not needed
for dropping a brick on your foot to be (depending on your footwear)
uncomfortable or painful.

> But lots of deluded people flock to churches simply because they have been sold
> a fairytale. They think churches are ticket offices for a nonexistent 'heaven'.

This is one of the situations where you demand that people 'should
never be adamant about' and 'should keep an open mind'. If you
actually took the time to learn, you would realize that some religions
tell their believers that you cannot by tickets to heaven by going to
church and no amount of worldly treasure can secure your place.
Getting into heaven is simply a matter of choosing to be a good person
and acting accordingly. You have your whole life to do it, but the
rest of your life to screw it up (why deathbed conversions are
popular, you do not have the opportunity for further sinning before
dying). I add less to the collection plate than I spend on my phone
bill.
>
> >> Kids below the age of about five are progarmmed to believe everything their
> >> parents or teachers tell them. Indoctrination is easy.
>
> >Non-sequitur, as someone had to initially receive the belief set.
> >Pushing it back a generation does not answer the question.
>
> hahaha! the foundations of religion are obvious. ...thunder and lightning,
> tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, floods etc. People wanted answers from their
> leaders....who had to concoct the plausible explanation...preferably one that
> couldn't be proved wrong.

That still disagrees with your claim, as you claim normal people
naturally do not have beliefs, so the leader would be as flummoxed as
everyone else. Why is the leader the stupidest person in the group?
>
> Now that science has explained all the strange phenomena associated with the
> elements, there is no further need for such stupid beliefs.

Oddly enough, the religions that I am familiar with have no truck with
the stupid beliefs and only deal with issues unanswerable by science,
such as "Why should I be a nice person?". An appalling number of
people died because some athiests (Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and
others) answered that question with 'I do not have to be a nice
person.'.
>
> >> >You cannot
> >> >claim that parents force their beliefs on their children, as someone
> >> >still had to have the first belief and convince others-- the normal
> >> >adopting the abnormal.
>
> >> Humans differ from other animals in that they have a concept of 'future'. We
> >> alone understand that we will one day cease to exist. Many people genuinely
> >> believe they are something special and find it unacceptible that they will one
> >> day die like everything else.
>
> >This is a claim that belief can spring up in a non-believer, a counter-
> >claim to your assertion that non-belief is normal.
>
> Human pride is often so strong that a person cannot accept that he or she is
> just another basic animal. Most people have an instinctive feeling that they
> are something special. maybe that is an essential part of the survival process.
>
> It is not surprising that many resort to a kind of self hypnosis in an attempt
> to obliterate the inevitable. It would be very satisfying to truly believe that
> one wold live forever..but I find it equally satisfying to know that one day,
> my struggle to survive will no longer be a worry.
> Face it, life for most is a long and painful experience. Death is its
> termination...the final relief.

Ahh, that explains why religious people are happier.

I am continually amazed that you dance around the whole point of this
discussion. You say that belief is unnatural and then argue against
your own position. Are you physically pained by the prospect of
admitting that belief is not unnatural? Will admitting error kill
you?