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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2019580,00.html

The US psychological torture system is finally on trial kidnappees

America has deliberately driven hundreds, perhaps thousands, of prisoners insane. Now it
is being held to account in a Miami court

Naomi Klein

Friday February 23, 2007

The Guardian

Something remarkable is going on in a Miami courtroom. The cruel methods US
interrogators have used since September 11 to "break" prisoners are finally being put on
trial. This was not supposed to happen. The Bush administration's plan was to put José
Padilla on trial for allegedly being part of a network linked to international
terrorists. But Padilla's lawyers are arguing that he is not fit to stand trial because
he has been driven insane by the government.

Arrested in May 2002 at Chicago's O'Hare airport, Padilla, a Brooklyn-born former gang
member, was classified as an "enemy combatant" and taken to a navy prison in Charleston,
South Carolina. He was kept in a cell 9ft by 7ft, with no natural light, no clock and no
calendar. Whenever Padilla left the cell, he was shackled and suited in heavy goggles
and headphones. Padilla was kept under these conditions for 1,307 days. He was forbidden
contact with anyone but his interrogators, who punctured the extreme sensory deprivation
with sensory overload, blasting him with harsh lights and pounding sounds. Padilla also
says he was injected with a "truth serum", a substance his lawyers believe was LSD or
PCP.

According to his lawyers and two mental health specialists who examined him, Padilla has
been so shattered that he lacks the ability to assist in his own defence. He is
convinced that his lawyers are "part of a continuing interrogation program" and sees his
captors as protectors. In order to prove that "the extended torture visited upon Mr
Padilla has left him damaged", his lawyers want to tell the court what happened during
those years in the navy brig. The prosecution strenuously objects, maintaining that
"Padilla is competent" and that his treatment is irrelevant.

The US district judge Marcia Cooke disagrees. "It's not like Mr Padilla was living in a
box. He was at a place. Things happened to him at that place." The judge has ordered
several prison employees to testify on Padilla's mental state at the hearings, which
began yesterday. They will be asked how a man who is alleged to have engaged in
elaborate anti-government plots now acts, in the words of brig staff, "like a piece of
furniture".

It's difficult to overstate the significance of these hearings. The techniques used to
break Padilla have been standard operating procedure at Guantánamo Bay since the first
prisoners arrived five years ago. They wore blackout goggles and sound-blocking
headphones and were placed in extended isolation, interrupted by strobe lights and heavy
metal music. These same practices have been documented in dozens of cases of
"extraordinary rendition" carried out by the CIA, as well as in prisons in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

Many have suffered the same symptoms as Padilla. According to James Yee, a former army
Muslim chaplain at Guantánamo, there is an entire section of the prison called Delta
Block for detainees who have been reduced to a delusional state. "They would respond to
me in a childlike voice, talking complete nonsense. Many of them would loudly sing
childish songs, repeating the song over and over." All the inmates of Delta Block were
on 24-hour suicide watch.

Human Rights Watch has exposed a US-run detention facility near Kabul known as the
"prison of darkness" - tiny pitch-black cells, strange blaring sounds. "Plenty lost
their minds," one former inmate recalled. "I could hear people knocking their heads
against the walls and the doors."

These standard mind-breaking techniques have never faced scrutiny in an American court
because the prisoners in the jails are foreigners and have been stripped of the right of
habeas corpus - a denial that, scandalously, was just upheld by a federal appeals court
in Washington DC. There is only one reason Padilla's case is different - he is a US
citizen. The administration did not originally intend to bring Padilla to trial, but
when his status as an enemy combatant faced a supreme court challenge, the
administration abruptly changed course, charging Padilla and transferring him to
civilian custody. That makes Padilla's case unique - he is the only victim of the
post-9/11 legal netherworld to face an ordinary US trial.

Now that Padilla's mental state is the central issue in the case, the government
prosecutors are presented with a problem. The CIA and the military have known since the
early 1960s that extreme sensory deprivation and sensory overload cause personality
disintegration - that's the whole point. "The deprivation of stimuli induces regression
by depriving the subject's mind of contact with an outer world and thus forcing it in
upon itself. At the same time, the calculated provision of stimuli during interrogation
tends to make the regressed subject view the interrogator as a father-figure." That
comes from Kubark Counterintelligence Interrogation, a declassified 1963 CIA manual for
interrogating "resistant sources".

The manual was based on the findings of the agency's notorious MK-ULTRA programme, which
in the 1950s funnelled about $25m to scientists to carry out research into "unusual
techniques of interrogation". One of the psychiatrists who received CIA funding was the
infamous Ewen Cameron, of Montreal's McGill University. Cameron subjected hundreds of
psychiatric patients to large doses of electroshock and total sensory isolation, and
drugged them with LSD and PCP. In 1960 Cameron gave a lecture at the Brooks air force
base in Texas, in which he stated that sensory deprivation "produces the primary
symptoms of schizophrenia".

There is no need to go so far back to prove that the US military knew full well that it
was driving Padilla mad. The army's field manual, reissued just last year, states:
"Sensory deprivation may result in extreme anxiety, hallucinations, bizarre thoughts,
depression, and antisocial behaviour" - as well as "significant psychological distress".

If these techniques drove Padilla insane, that means the US government has been
deliberately driving hundreds, possibly thousands, of prisoners insane around the world.
What is on trial in Florida is not one man's mental state. It is the whole system of US
psychological torture.

· Naomi Klein's book on disaster capitalism will be published this spring; a version of
this article appears in the Nation www.nologo.org <http://www.nologo.org/>

Peter47

February 23, 2007 2:30 AM

As an older US citizen I am mortified that as a country we are so apathetic about our
own Constitution that we have allowed our government to be usurped by a gang - yes I
mean a gang - of people so out of touch with our democratic principles and ethical
requirements as citizens that we think it acceptable to adopt the tactics of other (yes,
other) totalitarian regimes of the not too distant past.

We are now no longer any better than any other central authority that has tortured,
maimed, and driven mad through pain, people arrested as "enemies of the State" or
captured as combatants on the battlefield.

My country no longer has any moral standing upon which to stand to say that something is
inhumane. We are now inhumane and callous, and our representatives in Washington can do
no more than dither and fumble around the edges of the issues while the administration
recreates the worst behavior of Nazi concentration camp doctors and guards. Yes, Nazis.
We are now the enemy we tried and convicted in Nuremburg in 1947 for following orders
from on high without questioning their morality or purpose.

We told them then, and hanged some for this very thing: "I was only following orders."
This is neither an excuse nor an answer a person sworn to uphold his or her country's
honor, either in peace or in war, should give and still claim not to be a puppet. The
behavior is barbaric, and the people from the administration, past and present, on down
to the lowest enlisted person and civilian or CIA operative shuld be held responsible
for their actions. If the World Court were able to arrest and try and convict them for
crimes against humanity you would hear no complaints from me.

mukoshi

February 23, 2007 2:56 AM

Thank God for Americans like Naomi Klein,Peter 47 and Californiamontanacan; there is
still hope.

BlackSal

February 23, 2007 2:57 AM

Quite apart from the dispicable cruelty and illegality that is involved in this
treatment, it is patently absurd as a way to garner credible intelligence. How can you
use information from a subject you have rendered insane.

Josef K, your time starts now...

Manclad

February 23, 2007 3:11 AM

No doubt the usual frothing mad headbanging right wing filth who've seen too many
episodes of 24 will be inundating CIF with "ticking time bomb" arguments -- we need to
torture, er torture-lite, er strenuously interrogate Ayrabs to stop attacks.

Grow up, people. It doesn't work and has never worked.

Anyone who wants to look deeper into the disgusting practices of the US government --
nothing new, as Klein points out, they all date back to KUBARK in the 60s -- since 9/11
should check out Alfred McCoy's essays on the subject (two links below). The time of
reckoning is close for these maggots, and the harm they have done will haunt them to
their graves.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=1795

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/17/1522228

Philinthe

February 23, 2007 3:40 AM

The Americans have carried the art of torture farther than the Nazis. Reading
Concentration Camp memoirs one is frequently amazed at how sane the inmates remained.
But the USA has decided to rape human beings in the very core of their minds -- to drive
them insane.

MariaPia

February 23, 2007 3:54 AM

Thank you Naomi Klein and Peter 47 for trying to uphold the principles upon which
democracy is based. As for Durandal and Effewe2, it was painful to read their comments.
I can easily imagine hearing that kind of remarks in Nazi Germany. The point is, we have
every right to expect better of the goverenment of the United States of America.

DimitriDimitrich

February 23, 2007 4:02 AM

As the saying goes in Spanish: "Cria cuervos y te sacaran los ojos" ... or rather,
loosely translated: "Raise crows and they'll poke your eyes out", i.e. the monsters that
torment you are of your own creation... Unfortunately, thanks to the 'medieval'
mentality of (some of) our North American brethren, down here in S. America the historic
memory of brutal torturers, following the instructions of Tio Sam's how to insert live
rats into vaginas and other fun things to do with commie scum of the earth training
book, is still awfully fresh... But as Ms Klein herself is a prime example, not
everything or everyone in the US is bad, although it would help if you stopped electing
some of your worst fruit cakes to high office. ¡Saludos!

caomoo

February 23, 2007 4:15 AM

First, mukoshi, I believe Naomi is Canadian, not American. And, if you know anything
about the geography, linguistics, culture, or history of the two countries, you know
there is a great difference.

As to torture, yes, it has been going on "in road gear" at least since the establishment
of the National Security State in the U S after WWII. One of the commenters notes that
the Americans have carried "the art of torture farther than the Nazis." Remember that in
so many ways, the Nazis just aped what they saw the U S do to them in WWI. Also, CIA
Operation Paperclip brought over lots of the Nazi torturers and assimilated them into
the American intelligence agencies and military medicine. In addition, the U S let the
Japanese who had tortured American soldiers during WWII go free when these Japanese
agreed to give the Americans all their findings on the processes and effects of torture.

Torture has a long history in the U S. It goes, hand in glove, with all the invasions
and subversions of so many countries, many of them democracies, over the years--or
haven't you kept count?

Finally, please, closely study the response of effewe2.

Be forewarned. The people ruling America share his view of the world and his view of
humanity. Protect yourself.

jigen

February 23, 2007 5:04 AM

@mukoshi - I agree with you, thank goodness for the Americans that have a conscience.
Unfortunately it's not their votes that get counted.

@durandal - you make light of this and claim that torture opponents are picking the
wrong fight. It's all one fight. We should oppose this barbarism, this twisted rule by
torture in every regime it pops up in. You are foolish if you believe we should let
those regimes off the hook that have found a way to make their torture seem less harmful
and respectable. A nation that claims itself the defender of freedom and democracy and
champion of human rights - the policeman of the world - should be more under scrutiny
for this than those regimes where this behavior is typical. The hypocrisy is astounding.
If we don't oppose it in the US, what right do we have to oppose it in any other nation?
Picking the wrong fight is what you've done in excusing and being an apologist for this
shameful torture practice.

Koolio

February 23, 2007 5:32 AM

@durandal: so just because other countries engage in even more sinister forms of
torture, should we not be saddened or enraged by what the USA is doing to its prisoners?
I find North Korea a despicable regime, probably most do. Besides, it's a totalitarian
government. I suppose that at least we are able to learn of this incident because a
courtroom process is making the information public and evidence can be tested, something
that wouldn't happen in the DPRK.

But the DPRK doesn't go around promoting itself as the leader of the free world and a
wonderful country to live in whilst torturing its citizens. Revelations such as the ones
coming from this trial clearly show the cowardice and hypocrisy prevalent in some parts
of the US administration.

YesMunster

February 23, 2007 6:05 AM

'Effewe2' is not worth wasting pixels on but 'durandal' may wish to read Alfred McCoy's
work which dates back to the US occupation and counter-terrorism efforts in the
Philipinnes.

If you want to destroy a human mind, the quickest way is to force them to stand with
their arms stretched out as in the famous Abu Graib photo. This way the subject is
hurting themselves, something the human mind finds hard to accept and process. The KGB
used the same tactics as they read the same CIA-developed techniques.

Sensory deprivation and assault can be worse than physical torture. The latter, after
all, can show wounds where the in the former, the wounds are invisible. Physical pain,
does mostly diminsih with time. Mental pain can increase. Let those who minimise sensory
assault try one of the techniques for 12 hours or longer. They may change their view
afterwards.

Whatever the effects, the US has signed national and international treaties banning
torture. Why does the US break the treaties and las it signs? Because it can?

Torture has proven to be ineffective and the FBI refuses to use it, preferring the
befriending of subjects and coaxing, rather than torturing to obatin information . It
produces better results. Torture is really revenge but it dehumanises and brutalises the
torturer and the society in which it exists as well.

This may suit the failed gungho image of latter day John Waynes but it is a sad
commentary on an injured and failing state that is hitting out at its tormentors without
understanding why it is so hated. The Big Brother world wants to throw out the US
housemate because its behaviour is threatening the whole enterprise.

We expect North Koreans et al to commit horrible acts and sometimes our expectations are
fulfilled. Like the supposedly civilised Germans in WWII, what the US is doing is an
affront to civilised values. What would Mark Twain say about the US today?

JohnR

February 23, 2007 6:07 AM

Land of the free?

Home of the brave?

imipak

February 23, 2007 6:10 AM

These people have been found guilty of exactly nothing, are often accused of exactly
nothing, and in a number of cases were handed to American forces by "bounty hunters"
rather than being captured red-handed in some devious plot. Sure, the suffering of
innocent Americans is not insignificant. Nobody (rational) claims it is. The debate is
over the suffering of all the other innocents in these vengeful tirades.

It is perfectly normal to want an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Normal, but
wrong. No civilized society can remain stable for long with such a system, which is why
civilizations develop a code of laws and rights for the accused. Britain's Magna Carta
makes clear that no-one shall be convicted on the unsupported evidence of a witness, and
that no-one shall be denied the right to justice. Although the Magna Carta itself has
long-since been relegated to the history books, these principles underpin the concept of
justice as understood in Britain and America.

(The US Constitution is just a re-wording of the Magna Carta, with the more medieval
bits thrown out and some of the earlier powers that had been dropped re-introduced.)

That's that side. Now, what about these supposed benefits? We're told that "thousands"
of terror-plots have been prevented "through this intelligence", yet the US General
Accounting Office reported recently that virtually all such alledged plots were nothing
more than minor visa violations and domestic disputes. If someone in Gitmo is able to
reveal the inside secrets of the personal lives of Mr. and Mrs. Smith of downtown New
York, don't you think it would be more appropriate to call in the psychic investigators
and the Skeptical Inquirer?

If, in fact, these "plots" were NOT revealed by the prisoners under torture, then would
it not be more reasonable to conclude that these claims are either seriously deluded or
extremely serious deceptions? If these officials would lie about even the trivial
details, then if they ever were to find out something serious, who would trust them? You
can only cry wolf so many times.

snowyjoeinmoscow

February 23, 2007 6:18 AM

The question we should ALL be asking ourselves is this -

What can we do about it?

Everyone hates a bully. What did we do about bullies at school, or in life generally? We
suffer in pathetic silence or do something about it?

It's time the international community, led by the United Nations, began to isolate
America, economically and politically. Let's do to these bastards what they did to Cuba.
Give them a taste of their own medicine.Give them the silent treatment, STOP dealing
with them, close down their Embassies, send all their diplomats home. Boycott all
AMerican products. Put THEM in the slammer until maybe one day the message gets home
that you can't bully your way around the world and step on anyone who gets under your
big clumsy cowboy boots.

Look, we can see how rag tag insurgents in even one small poverty stricken country like
Iraq can give massive problems to the US , so what could the International Community do
if it came togther?

AbandonedShip

February 23, 2007 6:46 AM

Peter47 and Californiamontanacan say it better than I can. I am comforted to think there
are still a few Americans like them left. Unfortunately not enough to oust this rogue
administration and restrain their corporate handlers.

What's incredible is that the US still has the gall to criticize other countries for
their human rights records. As it any longer had a leg to stand on! Can you say "zero
credibility", boys and girls?

It will be interesting to watch this case and see whether the court system still has any
teeth left. You can bet the Feds will be fighting dirty all the way.

Siam

February 23, 2007 6:50 AM

If the US thinks its acceptable to kidnap people and torture them for no reason other
than they may be linked to terrorism, and bearing in mind the terrorist acts acted out
by US administration on other countries, then by by their own standards Ms Rice and Mr
Bush are fair game, lets kidnap them, torture them and justify it by saying we believe
they have done something wrong, but we are not going to tell what for security reasons
and there will be no trial.

jigen

February 23, 2007 7:01 AM

@jollygreen - I live in America and I read the Guardian. I sometimes criticize America,
which is not the same as demonization. I'm always astounded by the ignorance of people
who can't understand positive - seeking improvement - criticism (and freedom of speech).
I suggest the true demonizers are those that allow for and apologize for this torture.
They're the ones who allow this demonic behavior and demonization. (In other words,
blame and correct those who behave badly, not those who point it out. Jeez.)

And your comment about prisoners rotting in Castro's prisons (not too far from those
rotting in Guantanamo Bay) and China - are you in favor of these prisons or opposed to
them? I'm not sure why you bring them up, what is your point exactly? It's bloody
hypocrisy to be in favor of those your government runs and opposing those it doesn't, or
supporting one form of torture but not another.

I'm sure Naomi Klein is disgusted by the gulags and prisons you point out, but her voice
of criticism carries no weight there until the same sort of torture camps are eliminated
in her own nation. Why is this point so difficult for right-wing apologists to grasp?
She is putting her voice and energy into making changes at home, then she might be
qualified to speak against human-rights abuses abroad.

tshebe

February 23, 2007 7:19 AM

It's heartening to read that hardly anyone is willing to take Naomi Kline to task by
leaping to the defence of the indefensible.

Obviously the wrong person is on trial.

May the time come soon when that situation is rectified.

vecek

February 23, 2007 7:29 AM

http://grangereau.blogs.liberation.fr/video/

Insane, please you better check how well treated prisoners are

mk11

February 23, 2007 8:14 AM

While it is certainly important to stress this scandalous issue, I feel a word should be
said for the much greater numbers of common-law prisoners exploited by their government.

While you can certainly get slightly depressed by a breakdown of the US prison
population by ethnicity, or just its sheer size, for a fuller hit please take a look at
http://www.unicor.gov site of the oh-so-aptly named Federal Prison Industries, where you
can download glossy pdf's of lovely prisoner-made wares and even shop online. A pure gem
is ballistic armour for law-enforcement personnel. I do wonder about quality-control
though.

If you think you're safe because you're white, educated and a skilled IT professional...
oops, think again, they're avowedly the "best kept secret in outsourcing".

As perversely funny as this may be, it should not detract from the fact that there are
huge vested economic interests in maintaining a large, cheap and subdued work-force. It
casts a not-so-glowing light on a lot of past and present US policy and lawmaking.
Rather unfortunately, it's not just the current regime at fault here.

On the subject of MK-ULTRA, the quoted $25 million is wide off the mark. By how much is
unknown, as the budget was never formally stated in writing, came from various sources
and was not accounted for. This very covert op lasting well into the 70's, included such
fun All-American activities as psy-ops, including hallucinogen and stimulant testing, on
unwitting members of the general public, government employees, as well as inmates and
mental/drug-rehabilitation patients.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/index.html

HeWillKillUsAll

February 23, 2007 8:16 AM

A colleague came into my office on the day Bush first announced his candidacy for
president. He asked what I thought. My single response was: "he is going to kill us
all." In myriad ways, he will continue to do so over his next 2 years in office, which
years he will definitely have due to our impotent and laughable congress. Therefore, I
concur with Siam...except to say that Siam did not go far enough. It just wouldnt be
right if Bush and Rice were not joined in their sensory deprived
environment/cells/clothing/shackles/blinders/headphones/et al,not to mention pure
physical brutality, without Rumsfeld, Cheney, Feith, Pearle, Wolowitz, Bremer,Blair,

every one of Bush's press secretaries,and so many others too numerous to mention.
Although we would have to think of another torturous goal besides inducing insanity.
Apparently, insanity of the meglomaniacal nature was a job prerequisite for each of
them.

Peter 47, your words and sentiments were beautiful, but I fear we are way past the point
of words mattering to these war criminals. It is truly time for the American Revolution
against the evil King George: Part II.

Eachran

February 23, 2007 8:23 AM

Madam Klein, good article.

All posters apart from the 2 or 3 eccentric ones.

Well said all, I couldnt agree more.

brux

February 23, 2007 8:52 AM

Thanks for the reference to this week's ruling by the Washington Federal Apeeals Court.
If I understand correctly, it was ruled that disallowing habeas corpus for certain
prisoners is OK as long as there is a law for this.

This puts the Nuremberg laws which stripped Jews of their rights in Germany in 1935 into
a new perspective. It was all quite OK because the German Parliament had passed those
laws. Just gassing them was a bit too much as this option was not included in those
laws.

Is it only me or do others also see that the US have developed their own little brand of
fascism?

finkymarv

February 23, 2007 9:08 AM

England stopped the use of testimony gained through torture in court for a simple reason
- nothing to do with its morality. You torture someone to get information; you torture
them long enough and they will admit what you want them to admit or tell you what you
want to know. That is the single purpose of torture. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter
whether they are actually guilty of what you are accusing them of, or if they know what
you want them to tell you. Sooner or later, a torture subject will tell you anything to
stop the process. That makes any information gained through torture completely
unreliable. Personally, I think th euse of torture is barbaric, and it is arrogance of
the highest order for us today to rip through all of the treaties and conventions signed
up to in earlier years, thinking that no-one ever forsaw a situation like we have today.
The reason torture was oputlawwed internationally was precisely in case of events like
those today - and a recognbition of the fact that without strict international law,
governments can make extremely bad moral decisions when under pressure.

EarthWindFire

February 23, 2007 9:22 AM

I wonder if there is need for a new league table for "axis of evil" candidates.

It's time for the world to call the US to account. They have become the spectre of all
that they ranted against - an embodiment of an evil that makes George Orwell's world of
1984 look benign.

Naomi, Peter47, what can we do to help? Snoweyjoeinmoscow gives one suggestion that many
of us have been doing for some years, namely Boycotting all American products. Not that
this has much effect on the markets unless massive in scale. But it does mean that I can
live my life in deliberate rejection of such evil.

MarketSquareHero

February 23, 2007 9:25 AM

Great article. One thing I would add is that the long periods of silence interspersed
with loud music would also cause severe hyperacusis. This is a condition where the
slightest noise is very painful and can take years of slow desensitization to cure. As
to those who don't consider all this to be torture, go hang out with some people who
have lost their minds or are schizophrenic.

spanker999

February 23, 2007 9:31 AM

I think that some of the wise and the good have missed the point when they hark on about
the gulags of China and the torture of North Korean inmates.

The US is the self proclaimed bastion of freedom and democracy. Freedom is a word that
the U.S. administration bands about the airwaves like, McDonalds franchises on prime
real estate. Unfortunately torturing as yet innocent people is incongruous with this
propaganda. The US' reputation, economy and eventual status is going to the wall. And
the others will take over. To combat this slide by the Bush administration is like
trying to combat a guerrilla network by killing the civilian population through agent
orange. Goodbye and good luck.

MouthinginMD

February 23, 2007 9:33 AM

Banjolele: "Why is democratic politics incapable of delivering governments (in either
the US, Uk or elswhere) that have a true moral core?"

How about a truly frightening argument. They are incapable of delivering a moral core
because they are elected by the people? And although individuals are complex, thoughtful
and basically good, as a group they simply SUCK (in the US, UK, Germany, France,
wherever).

We can't pretend that Bush issues out these orders and theree hundred million americans
look doubtfully and follow these orders with regret and reluctance...a significant part
of their (and our, and Englands and Frances) poipulation are angry, bitter, resentful
and frankly look to be just itching to 'get someone'.

In France, a country which can in no way be described as poor or opressed, a Neo Nazi
wins second place in a Presidential election.

In Germany CDU/CSU does backward somersaults trying to deny that there is any form of
nazi revival taking place in the rural east.

In the UK they re-elect a Prime Minister even though we nearly all seem to accept he's a
lying, grinning slimeball who has outsourced British Foreign Policy not to Brussels but
to bloody Washington.

And in the US, President Bush wins a seocnd term and the electorate name "moral issues"
as it's most important reason for voting. A sick, sick irony.

keelynet

February 23, 2007 9:40 AM

snowyjoeinmoscow: "It's time the international community, led by the United Nations,
began to isolate America, economically and politically".

Forget the U.N. Here's how to do it with immediate effect:

http://www.rense.com/general75/DUMPING.HTM

moebius

February 23, 2007 9:43 AM

For me, the icing on the cake which summed up the U.S.A of today was the description of
the Guantanomo inmates who killed themselves last year as conducting 'asymetrical
warfare'.

If that doesn't demonstrate how divorced from reality certain elements of the U.S
administration is, I don't know what does.

Kidnap people, hold them without trial, torture them and when they reach a point when
they can no longer take it, accuse them of concocting a devastating attack on the United
States by killing themselves???????

Craigoh

February 23, 2007 9:44 AM

I knew things were bad, with Gitmo', rendition flights, etc. But what's scaring me is
that we all know that when America sneezes, we all catch cold. So one wonders just how
complicit is the rest of the West in all this? Including The UK where I live, and maybe
even little ol' NZ (where my passport tells me I'm from, and where there's a sattelite
comms spy station).

As Jan Morris pointed out on these pages recently, there is such an incredible idea of
America. In idealised form it is so inspiring, and a beacon to the world; 'give me your
poor huddled masses', etc. It is so powerful and can be such a force for good. And
sometimes it is.

EG: I remember thinking what a good job the USA did straight after the Tsunami, rushing
in with all that aid, and how THAT was the side of America that can inspire admiration,
respect, great affection and even devotion. And why didn't we see that side of the
national character more often?

But this? It makes fearful, and sick to my stomach.

BTW: those who say the writer is American; well perhaps it's better to say she's North
American, or Canadian / American. As I understand it, her USA family fled to Canada to
avoid the draft back in the days of the Vietnam War.

Teacup

February 23, 2007 9:47 AM

Is this the government of an evangelical Christain? Wasn't the catch phrase
"faith-based" initiatives? I am sooooooo impressed by this religion that I may convert
from atheism.

Seriously folks, boycotting the United States is not the answer, any more than sanctions
against Iraq were the answer to problems with that country. The problem is not the
people of the United States, most of whom are good and decent people. The problem is its
current leadership.

I used to argue with poster Impeach, that impeachment was not necessary. I was wrong and
I urge her and other like-minded Americans to fight the good fight.

ohcomeon

February 23, 2007 9:47 AM

The mentality of those who defend American torture is exactly the mentality that
promotes the torture in the first place.

Ignorant, desperate and limited mentalities that forgo human empathy and love for the
flush that is power. Standard issue self-disgust remodelled into self-importance and
acted on through violence.

Those people are the real danger, not the yet-to-be charged so-called terrorists but
those who revel in authoritarianism laced with torture and murder.

Excellent article Ms Klein

Briar

February 23, 2007 9:48 AM

An excellent and necessary article. Pity it won't change anything - and MouthinginMD has
perceptively suggested why. Democracy seems to have settled for being a method of
passing moral responsibility for shameful, violent and crudely self interested acts
around until it vanishes.

Muswellite

February 23, 2007 9:58 AM

Boycotting is the wrong approach. American business is too entrenched in the world and,
besides, boycotting only works on small countries that will truly suffer from it. Sure,
it'll make you feel better, but it won't change anything.

America is, nominally, a functioning democracy containing the necessary political and
judicial processes to do something about this. The only way to stop the American
Government (as distinct from America as a whole) from pushing its essentially
totalitarian agenda is for the American people to stop it.

Americans are good people at heart, just like the rest of us. The problem is that some
of them are deliberately ignorant and insular. America needs to be educated about its
own government, what it's really doing, and what the rest of the world thinks about
them.

I'm sorry if that sounds patronising, but I'd like to believe that Americans are
ignorant rather than evil, and it's one or the other.

LittleTyke

February 23, 2007 10:08 AM

mukoshi reckons that there is still hope. I have my doubts. I agree with the first
contributor, who said, in terms, that the current US Administration is no better than
the gang of Nazi thugs who were arraigned before the court at Nuremberg. But it took the
whole world five years to battle against fascism and beat it at enormous cost in lives
and dollars. Who is in a position today to battle against the overwhelming power that
the US Administration has at its disposal? Putin recently reminded the world just where
it is right now with the biggest elephant of all in the bedroom, but what can anyone do
about it, except watch the elephant get bigger and badder and turn into an absolute
rogue? I thought things would be different once the Democrats gained control, but
nothing much seems to have changed. Possibly the only thing that will cause a change is
million-strong mass protests by Americans in Main Street, America. But "Land of the
free" just has a hollow ring about it now.

Seano

February 23, 2007 10:16 AM

The most disturbing part of this article are the deranged comments following it. We keep
hearing these arguments from right-wing Americans (inc. parts of the US government).
Firstly, the argument that these people are murderers and therefore deserve whatever
they get. Secondly, that US torture-light isn't as bad as the torture practised in
dictatorial regimes such as N.Korea.

Is this the sort of country Americans really want to live in? A country where people are
assumed guilty without ever going to trial and have no chance of proving their
innocence? A country that justifies its human rights record by comparing itself to the
most brutal, crackpot regimes?

But I'm sure Fox news/ the New Yost Post et al will be able to spin this some how, or
else just ignore it completley, so most Americans won't even have a clue what's going
on.

snowyjoeinmoscow

February 23, 2007 10:17 AM

I agree that it's sad things have come to this. We in the UK were weaned on AMerican
culture, let's be honest we are massive consumers because we too wanted to buy into the
dream. There are millions of decent Americans who are decent and intelligent and they
are the only real hope. This current crop of neo-con gansters are'nt typical Americans,
they are the result of some kind of inbreeding experiment that went wrong somewhere in
the past and maybe Americans were generally to comfortable or distracted to see what was
going on, but this is what happens when you take your eye off the ball. Putin is right,
the US is a young country, and it's dangerous teenage delinquent behaviour needs be
checked by more mature expeienced democracies, yes like ours. Maybe when Americans like
Peter47 (god bless ya son) put pressure on to get their own house in order it's the best
hope for us all, and maybe a sign that America can come of age as a 'democracy.' I
personally fear a more depressing scenario though. I believe these born again Crusaders
at the top in the US would rather see all-out nuclear war than a slip in their control
agenda.

After all, it would just be the final playing out of their self-fulfilling prophecies,
their belief in Biblical Armageddon. God help us indeed.

burningbush

February 23, 2007 10:27 AM

Re Teacup: Is this the government of an evangelical Christain? Wasn't the catch phrase
"faith-based" initiatives? I am sooooooo impressed by this religion that I may convert
from atheism.

Just to put the record straight from my perspective... The American administration
speaks nothing of my Christian beliefs. If you are insinuating that the American
government and Christians (like myself) share the same values I suggest you need to
reflect a little.

The article really highlights how rancid the torch bearers of democracy are. If Bush et
al are destined for heaven, I will seriousley consider joining you Teacup, keep a seat
warm just in case.

DodgerNick

February 23, 2007 10:40 AM

This seems like a step forward indeed. Bravo Ms Klein. If only the use of depleted
uranium munitions were under the same kind of scrutiny from media commentators. This is
causing cancer rates and birth deformities to rocket in the middle east. It seems the
land will be contaminated forever, and contamination will spread. Google "Doug Rokke,"
the pentagon's own expert who was fired when he spoke out, and follow the trail. I warn
you, it makes the other war crimes look like a walk in the park..

WheatFromChaff

February 23, 2007 10:40 AM

Very interesting and disturbing article.

"These standard mind-breaking techniques have never faced scrutiny in an American court
because the prisoners in the jails are foreigners and have been stripped of the right of
habeas corpus - a denial that, scandalously, was just upheld by a federal appeals court
in Washington DC."

This is something which, if true, every visitor to the US should be aware of. "Come to
Disneyworld and lose your Rights" doesn't make for the best advertising slogan.

In Britain, habeas corpus applies to anybody who sets foot on British soil: indeed,
during the 17th century, it was used by the courts to abolish slavery within England
decades before Parliament got around to it.

Had this rule been in place, however, Mr Somersett's slave would have been recaptured
and shipped off to the Indies.

durandal

"Sleep deprivation and exposure to loud noises and bright lights are so tame that they
are acceptable police interrogation practices in most countries"

That may be so - the RUC used these techniques in Northern Ireland - but they weren't
considered to be so "tame" then that Americans didn't protest vociferously about it.

However, if the allegations in the article are true, it goes way beyond mere "sleep
deprivation. It is the isolation which is the killer.

During the 19th century, somebody here designed a prison which a complex system of
corridors designed to ensure that no inmate could see, or contact, any other innmate. (I
forget the name of it.)

There was no sleep deprivation, or loud music, but it was found that many of the
prisoners rapidly became insane as the result of the isolation (this was not the
intention, but an unexpected result). The prison was closed down, and no others were
built.

Since then, all penal authorities have been aware (or ought to be aware) of the effects
of isolation.

jollygreen

"Hey Europeans/and wanna be Europeans, lets talk about all the prisoners rotting in
Fidel Castro's prisons."

America was a product of, and a beacon for, the Enlightenment. It has a constitution
which embodied the best parts of the English Common Law, and which provided checks and
balances against the abuse of individual freedoms.

It became the first country in the modern world whose citizens governed themselves by
electing their own Governors and Legislators.

It became a magnet for all the poor and distressed in the world, welcomed them in, and
treated them as free citizens, free to seek out their destinies.

It became the "shining city on the hill".

Castro, on the other hand, was a bandit who stole a country from a slightly worse
bandit, and treats it as his own private fiefdom.

You *really* think that they should be judged by the same standards?

tomguard

February 23, 2007 11:12 AM

durandal

"There is so much actual torture going on around the world, why focus on this? Sleep
deprivation and exposure to loud noises and bright lights are so tame that they are
acceptable police interrogation practices in most countries."

Or how about condemning Uzbekistan, to give just one example, where people were boiled
alive? Oh I forgot, the US has air bases there doesn't it so mustn't upset the regime
too much. When our (British) ambassador there, Craig Murray, blew the whistle on this
despicable regime Bush's heavy mob put the screws on the British Foreign Office to get
Murray to shut up. After spreading lies and scurrillous stories about Murray's private
life and branding him insane and yet still failing to silence him they gave him the
sack.

Torture in any form can never be morally justified. The US is guilty of using extreme
torture by proxy when it farms out people for torture in undemocratic but "friendly"
countries such as Egypt. So start by demanding that your government cease torturing
people either at home or overseas before pointing the finger at regimes over which you
have neither control nor influence.

empusa

February 23, 2007 11:19 AM

Craigoh, you make a good point about rendition flights and European compliticity in
allowing these.

MouthinMD, yes, it is depressing that democraticacy should fail in those cases you
mention, but as they say, it's the best we've got. I voted for Blair (the first time) in
good faith. I feel betrayed, not only because of his compliance with Bush and his
cronies, but because despite massive demonstrations (allowed in democratic systems)and
protests, Blair still went ahead. He chose not to listen to the majority of people.

As for voicing our protest to the US, I guess economic boycott would hurt. Remember that
USA has refused to sign International Law treaties, so it is difficult to make them
accountable.

SaintTorpor

February 23, 2007 11:24 AM

There really isn't all that much milage in comparing the US to Nazi Germany. Better to
think about Brazil in the 1960s and 70s, Chile in the 70s and 80s, most of Central
America to this day. The US is busily morphing into a deluxe version of the regimes it
has been imposing on Latin America for the last half-century -including the torture!
When the property bubble bursts and the Chinese government sells its dollars and buys
Euros and kroners, it'll only take a year or two before America is economically
indestinguishable from Brazil/1964 as well -a couple of million exceedingly wealthy
families guarded by a vast and corrupt military shipped stateside after the economic
empire it occupied was bought at fire-sale prices with, well with Euros -and remenyi,
and Yen and Reals. The worst-educated population in the industrialised world will slide
into favela-dom without too much complaint, as long as they still have their tvs,
preachers and drugs. (or is that preachers and/or drugs? Who cares!)

halm

February 23, 2007 11:24 AM

BlackSal: In his book "Guantanamo: What the World Should Know", civil rights lawyer
Michael Ratner suggests that an important activity at Guantanamo is to recruit Muslim
informants as undercover agents who will go back to their countries of origin and spy
for the US. This might explain why they send them insane - it's essentially brainwashing
in preparation for reprogramming.

experimentalis

February 23, 2007 11:27 AM

What are these people saying? How do they dare?

How is one supposed to hold a civilised discussion with proponents of torture, open
(effewe2, jollygreen, DaBishop) or covert (durandal)?

Can it ever be democratic to discuss things such as accepting and legalising torture?
Has one to prove again why it’s evil? Such a discussion by itself would legalise
discursively the possibility of torture.

What next? Exploring its details over dinner?

The fact is. Thanks to the present american government, and a part of the american
people, torture has again become an issue.

The only proper reply should be:

F*ck you, global torturers and polluters! We’ll fight you to the last!

Disgusting nazis!

Xiangfa

February 23, 2007 11:32 AM

Such US behaviour, in which it seems so many of our governments have been complicit, is
deeply shaming for those of us who advocate liberal democracy, ineffective in the quest
for reliable evidence and counterproductive in that it acts as a recruiting sergeant for
violent insurgents. In short, it is both stupid and immoral. And yet it takes place on
the watch of men who attended the world's finest universities and who call themselves
Christians. Who says Americans don't do irony?

GKJames

February 23, 2007 11:37 AM

Durandal: The “others do it too, and worse” argument is limp. “OK, judge, I may have
robbed this bank, but those other guys robbed banks too and they took even more money
than I did.” That we — meaning the denizens of that purportedly enlightened land of
liberty steeped in its glorious Judeo-Christian tradition — are debating, in 2007, the
merits of torture is bad enough. That the nation’s executives authorize it while the
legislature legally immunizes its practitioners against liability confirms that we are
well down the road of betraying the very principles on which the country was founded.
(In their boundless arrogance, both of these branches of government do so over the
objections of senior military leaders who know well that torture is neither useful in
getting reliable information nor conducive to the proper, lawful treatment of U.S.
personnel who happen to fall into enemy hands.) Worse, despite the manic insistence on
holding ourselves up to the rest of the world as the embodiment of virtue, we continue
to find people who not only go into this line of work but who enjoy it (while their
armchair-warrior supporters presumably cheer them on, moist-lipped and glassy-eyed, from
a safe distance). Then again, with a country led by the gutless, it’s no small surprise
that cowardice and hypocrisy, accompanied by the intellectual vacuousness to try to
justify both, have become coins of the realm.

(Notable, not coincidentally, is that those who so quickly and casually advocate
depriving others of rights are those who, when finding themselves fed — justifiably or
not — into the legal machinery squeal the loudest in self-righteous indignation.)

streathamite

February 23, 2007 11:38 AM

bravo to naomi, Peter47 and californiamontanacan. you have highlighted the dangers to
hallowed American principles of justice and freedom.

effewe - thank christ you are not in charge of a justice system, anywhere.

magicman

February 23, 2007 11:40 AM

Fantastic article, and a light at the end of a tunnel of despair for right-thinking
people. In an unaccountable world, where are the freedoms that were won by our
forefathers ?

mk11 - your link to an article about LSD torture (?) is 'out of date' or has been
removed by 'the authorities' depending on your paranoia, or how much LSD you've had.

Still I'd like to have read it, or any other account of the CIA mind-control episodes.
What's the accepted authority on this ?

Also - many thanks and salutes to those asking what WE can do, other than burble on a
blog. There is a peace march in London tomorrow everyone...

Krisco

February 23, 2007 11:44 AM

Several of the posters have suggested impeachmentof Bush. US Senator (D) Elizabeth
Holtzman has made a case for it in her articles in US weekly magazine, "The Nation"
under the heading: "Impeachment: The Case in Favor

[from the February 12, 2007 issue]". Two other articles, by her in the same weekly
entitled "The Impeachment of George W. Bush" [from the January 30, 2006 issue]and
""Torture and Accountability," [from the July 18/25, 2005 issue] make a comprehensive
case for anyone interested. They are a readymade template for any Congressmen with an
ounce of conscience or humanity.

However, I shan't be holding my breath.

thegom

February 23, 2007 11:47 AM

One can see why the Americans never claim to exporting jusatice with their milatary
stength.

If theynhad conentrted on justice in the middle east adn south america we would by now
have many mor4e workinmg democracies. Justice is a true ideal democracy seems to be a
very flawed way of trying to achieve this is the American exaple is anything to go by.

Americasn beware if these techniques are not torture they could folowong this trial be
standard practive in all American trials even on home soil.

bass46

February 23, 2007 11:47 AM

@DaBishop,

yeah, some of the comments are a little over blown, but just because somewhere else is
worse doesn't make the central point invalid. The American government (with the covert
assistance of the British government by it's support) is torturing people who haven't
even been charged with a crime, let alone found guilty of anything. Because the torture
doesn't involve bleeding isn't really the point. It could be you if your face doesn't
fit.

There are elements of fascism in the way the neocons run things, although no, this
doesn't make America the Fourth Reich. People here are bemoaning the system that allows
this behaviour to go on in a land which wanders around the globe trumpeting it's high
ideals and moral certainty. If you say "our way is better" then you can't go and torture
people without being called a torturer.

Bush and Co are guilty of so much "evil doing" that it's hard to know where to start,
but torture is a as good as any other.

As an atheist I can only hope for their early demise, but the religious amongst you
might pray that it is they who burn in hell and not the innocent they busy breaking.
It's enough to make you fall to your knees.

Cynosarges

February 23, 2007 11:51 AM

Koolio mistakenly said:

"But the DPRK doesn't go around promoting itself as the leader of the free world and a
wonderful country to live in whilst torturing its citizens."

Correction of fact. The DPRK does, in fact, present itself as "a wonderful country to
live in"

From the DPRK government website, page http://www.korea-dpr.com/politics3.htm

"Today the D.P.R.K. is a genuine worker's state where all the people are completely
liberated from the exploitation and oppression. The workers, peasants, soldiers and
intellectuals are the real owners of the power and defend their interests."

Using untruths to advance an argument shows that cowardice and hypocrisy are prevalent
in places other than the US administration.

Hammin

February 23, 2007 11:57 AM

At the end of the day the world is becoming a much more dangerous place for Americans
and it won't be long before US citizens get kidnapped all over the world. And they will
face the same torture some of them are so happy to promote - I wouldn't want to be a
yank in this century.

And this will unfortunately only affect the intelligent Americans that know how to book
a flight and know that other countries do actually exist.

kagaka

February 23, 2007 12:08 PM

"Why is democratic politics incapable of delivering governments (in either the US, Uk or
elswhere) that have a true moral core?"

I think Aristotle made it clear. Every "good" form of political system has its dark
corollary. Aristocracy seen from the point of view of modern democracy is coloured by
its darker side of "despotism". Democracy's uglier face is "Mob Rule".

In more modern times, at least since the Committee for Public Safety and Robbespierre,
fascists have understood "mob rule" and have dredged it up from the muck lying at the
bottom of the democratic pond.

Our moral core has to come from how we educate and divert ourselves. Do we prefer to
spend our youth or leisure time with the next installment of "24", or with earning
points on GTA San Andreas, or in watching a production of an Ionesco play?

marrakesh

February 23, 2007 12:17 PM

***What would Mark Twain say about the US today?***

Nothing that he didn't say back then.

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.3/twain_intro.htm

stephenbuhner

February 23, 2007 12:20 PM

The United States has been doing this sort of thing to ordinary prisoners in U.S.
prisons for over 25 years; it has just been extended to the Bush war on, well, whatever
it is, the rights of man? The U.S., looking for so long in the face of the Soviets, has
indeed become what they opposed, Britain has been compliant in this transformation,
perhaps as a result of their reduction of human rights while fighting the IRA. The
process is insidious, the end obvious - except to the powerful.

chimpwatch

February 23, 2007 12:24 PM

As an American, I am grateful to Naomi Klein and those few with her integrity in the US
media who have exposed these atrocities. Also, I retain some respect for those vestiges
of our Judiciary that, despite the best efforts of the Bush administration, continue to
function as intended by the Constitution. It is articles like Ms. Klein's that help me
to understand that my enemies are not in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Iran, but in Washington,
controlling the government of my own country.

newcoldwar

February 23, 2007 12:28 PM

This would be an interesting piece if the anti-american bias wasn't so apparent ..

Why is Kline not whinging about the misogyist torture and brainwashing inflicted on 50%
of the Islamic population every day?

Is it because she hates "America" even more than she hates the human rights abuses?

After all - when talking about "American humans rights abuses" she focusses solely on
her "worthy victims" - to the point of excluding her "unworthy victims" - such as women
..

MariaPia

February 23, 2007 12:31 PM

An addendum to my earlier post: the Blair government is complicit in the Bush/Cheney
regime's use of torture to obtain information. Read ambassador Craig Morris' book,
Murder in Samarkand. The proof is there, ample proof. Moreover, a number of European
governments supported/support the "extraordinary renditions." We have all been betrayed
and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it.

Bugaboo

February 23, 2007 12:36 PM

Excellent article Naomi.

I have heard some members of the Bush administration denying that these methods amount
to torture. They described them as merely, interrogation techniques.This being the case
they would, presumably, find it acceptable if the same techniques were used on captured
U.S. soldiers.

Somehow one thinks not.

annetan42

February 23, 2007 12:39 PM

A good thought provoking article. The comments have been good too (apart from a few and
others have dealt with them more than adequately so I won't waste my time on them).

banjolele

' Why is democratic politics incapable of delivering governments (in either the US, Uk
or elswhere) that have a true moral core?'

Because its not truly democratic. Voting for a Govt (or a President) every 4 or 5 years
simply allows those who win a form of dictatorship. The people we elect have discovered
that they don't have to listen to the people. And these days, especially in the UK the
difference between the main Parties (for eg on the 'war on terror' or the war in Iraq)
is minimal.

The real truth is that real power resides not with governments but with internal
globalised companies. They for the most part have only one interest thats profit - not
morality

CityBoy2006

February 23, 2007 12:40 PM

A thoughtful and timely article, however it is sad that typical of many Guardian
writers, their articles are written with more than half an eye on the audience reaction.
So the statement that the US has driven hundreds, possibly thousands insane is based on
one man’s situation and extrapolated across a much larger population.

And then the righteous come out of the woodwork, apparently the US is the bastard love
child of Nazi Germany, Mengele and co had nothing on the current administration, the
sensory deprivation techniques are much worse than barbarity practiced elsewhere in the
world because ‘they are raping minds’.

DaBishop made a good point when he accurately identified many of the posters as sofa
dissidents, quite happy to screech about imperialism, Nazism etc whilst enjoying the
benefits of internet anonymity and a comfortable lifestyle often in the US.

The treatment of US prisoners is shocking in some cases and necessary in others,
sweeping generalisations (sadly practiced by the Bush regime too) do not serve any
useful purpose other than making the writer feel empowered by their own outrage.

GonzoSmashki

February 23, 2007 12:41 PM

It is sad to see the extent of the decline in a country I used to respect in such a
short space of time. The US over the course of the Bush administration has mutated into
some sort of hybrid monstrosity, combining all the worst features of a third world
fascist dictatorship with billions of dollars to waste on bombs and bullets. The legal
chicanery is the somehow the hardest to take as it shows that the systematic abuse of
America's own constitution is done with the consent of the other arms of legislature
unconnected with the Bush neocons. The saddest thing of all is that the US media is too
craven to report any of this. You impeached Clinton for a stain on a dress but the
senate is too cowardly to use the many constitutional powers it has to hold a clearly
mentally unbalanced president to account for his clear abuses of power.

filsdenature

February 23, 2007 12:43 PM

None of the apologists for these actions have given any reasons why these prisoners
should not be treated within a framework of human rights. Their response is mindless and
fundamentally regressive.

The argument that we should look to other regimes first contradicts a basic
common-sense, almost 'conservative' principle that you sort out your own back yard. For
me that means getting TB and co. out of government here (even if it lets in a load of
Tory wolves in sheeps clothing). That also means criticizing our closest 'allies' who
have embroiled us in this evil, corrupt and mendacious farce.

At no point in history has a democratic government thrown so many human beings into a
legal black hole, stripped of any framework of justice. The sheer brazen persistence and
openness of this approach is a message that the US considers itself above international
law and basic human values. They will take out anyone, any time, any place and reduce
them to vegetables - just because they can! Hell, someone's got to pay!

HanSilo

February 23, 2007 12:45 PM

How thoroughly depressing. It does make me wonder whether one can govern and remain an
honest man.

followyourheart

February 23, 2007 12:58 PM

Ms Klein you really are a tiny light to us all in the great darkness of the "war on
teror", which is being used consiously to blind us all to our inherent goodness - our
brother and sisterhood.

snowyjoeinmoscow

The question we should ALL be asking ourselves is this -

What can we do about it?

The only things we can do are speak out loudly and clearly like Naomia and refuse to
vote for any politician ever again that can be shown to have supported such ideology. No
one has yet mentioned the New Labour complicity with "Extraordinary Rendition" for such
purposes. Personally, I will never vote for any one who believes they have the authority
to treat others as they wish.

When would-be politicians present themselves to voters, they should be made to declare
their stance on these types of issues. Unfortunately they always use the Gay issue or
the abortion issue to justify their 'righteousness'. It is the issues exposed buy the
likes of Naomi that should be our primary concern.

America congratulates itself endlessly on its Christian values whilst treating others
like Christ was treated.

nolthenius

February 23, 2007 12:59 PM

While durandal and other torture apologists are by now undoubtedly the minority in the
U.S., their attitude and way of thinking on this subject are (sadly) well represented at
the highest levels of the current government. Their justification? The untruth that the
prisoners at Guantanamo are convicted terrorists who have actually taken human life
elsewhere. Their proof? There is none.

To quote Thomas Jefferson, I tremble for my country when I remember that God is just.

sapient

February 23, 2007 1:00 PM

Teacup 9.47am.

You are so impressed you may convert?

Your sarcasm it well understood.

Then there are also the comparisons of torture:

"We're not as bad; look they do this and this and .....!!"

Yet, I am a Believer. Could this be one of the reasons I join with no group?

Briar. 9.48am

You say "Democracy seems to have settled for being a method of passing moral
responsibility for shameful, violent and crudely self interested acts around until it
vanishes."

A summary of a totally depersonalised inhumane irresponsible system by a people who have
forgotten that they are the democracy and are responsible for it?

Dubcek

February 23, 2007 1:03 PM

Yeah, carry on sticking it to America. What an evil country, it would be better if it
was cut down size, let's all throw ourselves behind the PR war against it.

The Americans are worse than Nazis? Are you out of your tiny mind?

These remarks about concentration camps being better than US prisons are demeaning to
the writers as well as our common humanity.

When the Chinese, Russians. Brazilians and Indians are calling the globally shots during
your childrens' lifetimes, you will be nostalgic for the evils of America.

The western world is on notice: every weakening of American influence in the world is a
nail in your own coffin. Keep banging away you fools!

Why these righteous idiots want to drag western civilisation back to 1916, 1940 and 1946
is beyond me.

Americans. don't listen to the US hating Guardian readers. Some of us over here in
Europe are thankful for you, love you and need you.

Messina

February 23, 2007 1:03 PM

Abandoned Ship

" I am comforted to think there are still a few Americans like them left. Unfortunately
not enough to oust this rogue administration and restrain their corporate handlers."

I think there are plenty of Americans who oppos