Source: Page 136 of White Noise Keywords: "saying," "people," "ask"

From: "Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotoko.co.za> Subject: Re: Is Gandhi in Heaven? Date: 22 May 2006 Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.methodist

"I. B. Wonderin" <posting@groups.com> wrote in message news:%%fcg.75384$_S7.44891@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > "Stephen Korsman" <skorsman@theotoko.co.za> wrote in message > news:qo-dnZ8C3eTH1OzZRVn-uA@is.co.za... > > "john w @yoo.hoo>" <johnw<no_spam> wrote in message > > news:na42725ugb59n57p4hc0bfu37i0k4jn2h6@4ax.com... > > > x-no-archive: yes > > > On Sat, 20 May 2006 08:18:40 +0200, "Stephen Korsman" > > > <skorsman@theotoko.co.za> wrote: > > >  copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of > > > this article may be used elsewhere without express written consent > of > > > the author > > > >"john w @yoo.hoo>" <johnw<no_spam> wrote in message > > > >news:ocls62dmmq5kt1kah3sgoblb6arhvishoc@4ax.com... > > > >> x-no-archive: yes > > > >> On Fri, 19 May 2006 11:26:41 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> > wrote: > > > >>  copyright 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion > of > > > >> this article may be used elsewhere without express written > consent of > > > >> the author > > > >> >On Thu, 18 May 2006 08:56:24 -0700, john w > <johnw<no_spam>@yoo.hoo> > > > >wrote: > > > >> >>Last I heard, 'Heaven' is a destination for Christians, and for > those > > > >> >>who looked forward to the coming of Messiah (the faithful Old > > > >> >>Testament Jews). > > > >> >You heard wrong. > > > >> I heard right, actually. > > > >> And you have LONG since proved that you are an apostate. > > > >>   Heaven is a place for those that love one another as God loves > > > >> >us, John 13:34, > > > >> That is not contrary to what I said. > > > >> It is an "add-on."  Jesus said, "If you love me, obey me." At > another > > > >> time, He said, "If you love me, love one another as I have loved > you." > > > >> At another time, He said, "By how you treat your fellow man, you > will > > > >> demonstrate that you love me." > > > >> At another time, He said, "If you do not love your fellow man-- > who > > > >> you DO know-- how can you say you love God, who you do NOT know?" > > > >> with a purifying stop in purgatory, of course. > > > >Yes.  Hebrews 12:8. > > > No. > > > There is a FAR cry from God saying through the writer of Hebrews, > "God > > > disciplines us..." > > > from there being a "purgatory." > > No, we understand the term "purgatory" to mean what Heb 12:8 says. > Well I don't You should at least acknowledge that that is what Catholics believe. Otherwise you're > , as I know of no verses to support this understanding you > have, so: > HOW are souls disciplined in this in between Catholic place, and why > can't they be disciplined before they die? They are.  When they die with lessons unlearnt, those lessons are still completed, in our view. > Doesn't this encourage people to live in sin, as they don't have to deal > with the consequences of their sin till after they die, but have a > assurance that despite not overcoming in life, they will eventually go > to heaven, and are safe from hell? Not at all.  People who are happy living in their sin are not going to go to purgatory.  And those who are not happy with their sin will not really want to delay being more like Christ.  If those who are saved COULD want to live in sin, surely that would contradict the definition most Christians have of being saved?  A real Christian will WANT to reform and become more like Christ ... so there's not really an issue of such a delay. > Where is this taught by Jesus, the Patriarchs , the Prophets or the > Disciples? Verses already cited - such as Heb 12:8. - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - > > > Some may have easy lives. Others know that we are daily being > punished > > > and cleansed. > > > Saying that we must go to a "purgatory" after we die teaches that we > > > must atone for our own sins. > > No, it doesn't.  Not in the context of Christ's atonement. > > > That somehow, the sacrifice of our Lord was insufficient. > > Catholics, like you, reject that as heresy.  That is not what > purgatory is > > about. > > > That is heresy. > > > The teaching regarding purgatory is spiritual enslavement, and it is > > > heresy. > > What you understand as the doctrine of purgatory IS spiritual > enslavement, > > and IS heresy.  But you don't understand what Catholicism actually > teaches. > Well, what do Catholics teach that souls do in purgatory while they are > there? There is no official view on how the lessons are completed.  Some equate it to a fire, following the analogy of 1 Cor 3:15.  I prefer to see it as being faced with the pain we inflicted on others through our sins, seeing the hurt we can never fully comprehend in this life, and understanding sin for what it is.  In this life, we can't fully comprehend how God views sins we might consider minor issues.  In the next life, we'll be faced with, and comprehend fully, the stark reality of evil, which will either a) be our destiny, or b) cause us to find it repulsive and push away all the inclination towards sin that we experience in this life. In the sense of a personal judgement - we all will face that some day.  None of us can smirk and be grateful we were better than others, which means ALL of us will feel sorrow - true sorrow - for what we were, no matter who we are.  That alone can be the purification - the final loss of sinful tendencies - that Catholics call purgatory. > What determines that someone goes to purgatory instead of to heaven or > hell? Saved + all lessons learnt = heaven. Saved + lessons incomplete = purgatory. Not saved, lessons irrelevant = hell. > And what determines how long they are there? Time is a concept we understand in this life.  That makes it easier to express a learning experience in terms of time, and that has been the traditional way of doing this.  But there is no official view on whether these souls experience time the way we do.  Just as heaven may not be a literal place, but a state of being in God's presence, and hell may not be a literal place, but a state of having lost God's presence, so purgatory may simply be a state of purification, not a place.  And in the same way, it may be a state outside of time, or an instantaneous purification.  We can speculate, but all we know for sure (at least from a Catholic perspective) is that it's a real change, and we really experience it. So to say that someone who died last week might get out of purgatory next week, while someone really bad who died a month ago still has another year left, is a) to be too simplistic, and b) to confuse a bad person with a saved person who still needs a longer spiritual journey than some other saved people.  For many, though, it's a convenient way to understand something we can only comprehend in the next life. > And can the time there be shortened? if so, by what? Prayer.  God's grace.  If we pray for someone to grow closer to God, do you think he listens?  If we ask God to let someone discover his love without having to suffer too much, is that a bad thing, and will God answer such prayers?  If the answer is no, then I am at a loss - but if it's yes, then I see no reason why such prayers can't be answered for someone after their death either.  God isn't limited by time, and so, while we are, our prayers are not. All this CAN be expressed in terms of praying for someone to spend less time amongst hot coals.  It all just depends on how much it has been thought out. And even after lots of thinking, there will be lots of different answers, different understandings, and still no final answer. My question: does any of this sound like atonement in the way Christ atoned for our sins?  Or is it more like a path of spiritual growth once Christ's atonement has been applied to us?  After all, he took away the punishment for our sins, not the need to grow closer to him and become more like him. God bless, Stephen -- Stephen Korsman website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/ blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/ IC | XC --------- NI | KA add an s before .co.za

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